|
| 32 comments |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Excellent post, Tim.
Posted by on 03.10.04 at 7:29 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Why is this post so freaking wide?
Given that the Orthodox practice close communion, your claim that they're more faithful to the Gospel falls flat in light of your insistence that all churches be in full fellowship with each other, regardless of what is preached.
I'm not sure "We won't fellowship with you until you confess the pure Gospel and abandon heretical articles" is the same as the Judaizing attitude. What about "We won't consider you a full church unless you're all immersed?" That sounds Judaizing to me, and yet you recommend fellowship with them, to the point of saying that breaking fellowship is unfaithful to the Gospel. What attitude did Paul recommend that the Galatians extend to the Judaizers? Extend the right hand of fellowship?
Posted by Josh S on 03.10.04 at 9:08 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Re: the Orthodox - maybe you should reread what I actually said. I had just been talking about the issue of the communion of children. Then I said that on this point, if on no other, the Orthodox were more faithful than the hyper-confessionalist Presbyterians.
As for the Baptists, it's almost a moot point. Why? Because if they recognize our baptism, then they're not guilty of the charge you make. And if they won't, then fellowship isn't an issue in any case.
Posted by Tim on 03.10.04 at 9:38 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Thank you Tim. So true, some in the TR community have become 'Galatianesque' in their sectarianism and rationalism. We have to continue the Reformation. Appreciate your good thoughts.
Posted by Fred on 03.10.04 at 9:39 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
They don't recognize our baptism, because it's not by immersion and not done after a verbal profession of faith.
And why isn't fellowship an issue then? Shouldn't unity in baptism precede unity in Eucharist?
Sorry about the Orthodox thing. I misread you.
Posted by Josh S on 03.10.04 at 11:39 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Fabulous post. Thanks so much for that. May I cite it at some length on my (Catholic) blog? I think superb exposition like this ought to get a wider reading (and I am up to about 290 hits a day on my blog). And of course, you would be most welcome to come there and dialogue with reactions to your post if you like.
I think that Catholics are often quite as ignorant of a more nuanced and (I say) biblical Reformed expression of theology and ecclesiology such as yours, as many Reformed are ignorant about any number of things in Catholicism. Education and knowledge are wonderful things.
I think they go hand in hand with a genuine ecumenism. The more I find out about other Christian traditions (from the more able proponents of them), the more, generally, I respect them and see kindred spirits in many respects.
In Him,
Dave
Posted by Dave Armstrong on 03.11.04 at 12:27 am |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Fantastic post Tim! I thoroughly agree.
Posted by Al on 03.11.04 at 4:42 am |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Greetings Tim,
First of all, I appreciate the thrust of your post to bring the instrumentality of the church to the foreground in salvation. I do have a question though concerning one of your remarks where you write, "Paul says that salvation happens at the font (Gal 3.27)."
I understand you to be saying that Paul is speaking about salvation when he says that the baptized person has "put on Christ." Now, I think I understand your theology enough that you don't believe a person can lose his salvation, so what does it mean for this baptized person to be 'saved'? Can salvation 'happen' without saving the person, or can salvation be lost? Perhaps there is another angle I am not considering either.
Sincerely in Christ,
~Jason
Posted by Jason1646 on 03.11.04 at 9:55 am |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Oh, that first commendation was from me.
Posted by Jamie Soles on 03.11.04 at 10:55 am |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Josh - you write: "They don't recognize our baptism, because it's not by immersion and not done after a verbal profession of faith."
But Josh, if they really don't recognize our baptism, they are not going to sit at the table with us to begin with. My guess is that 99% of opportunities for Baptists to sit at the table with Reformed are going to be on the part of laypeople for whom it is not an issue. I'm not going to persecute them for something they're not perpetuating. The very fact that they are willing to share the table fellowship is an indicator that they are not "Judaizing."
Dave: feel free.
Jason: Hoo boy! That's a huge subject that really can't be addressed in a short blog comment. But the short answer is that we won't be able to understand the issue until we recognize that "salvation" is not merely an individual experience between the believer and God. The fall entails a loss of humanity, particularly in terms of community. Salvation entails the creation of a new humanity. Connection to Christ occurs in the form of membership in the body of Christ. Baptism (=being clothed with Christ) is baptism "into one body" (1 Cor 12.12-13).
IMHO, the Bible is relatively unconcerned regarding the direct question, "Can salvation be lost?" This is because the Bible's predominant understanding of salvation is shaped differently from our own. I am more concerned for us to reshape ourselves to the biblical pattern than to answer the questions that primarily arise from the wrong starting point to begin with. It seems to me that there are better, more biblical routes, to dealing with questions of assurance than getting into abstract discussions regarding whether "real" salvation can be lost. I will say, readily, that the number whom God has predestined to eternal life is fixed and unchangeable. I will say that there really are such people as hypocrites. But for the moment, I'll stop.
Posted by Tim on 03.11.04 at 11:06 am |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Tim writes: But the short answer is that we won't be able to understand the issue until we recognize that "salvation" is not merely an individual experience between the believer and God. The fall entails a loss of humanity, particularly in terms of community. Salvation entails the creation of a new humanity. Connection to Christ occurs in the form of membership in the body of Christ. Baptism (=being clothed with Christ) is baptism "into one body" (1 Cor 12.12-13).
Jason: Thanks Tim, this is what I thought you were getting at. I agree that salvation in Scripture is broader than conversion or justification, rather it has the entire scope of a new humanity in mind. It is spoken of in past, present, and future tenses for the Christian. We may differ on the level of abstraction of the individual in this area, but could we meet half-way and say that salvation begins at the font, rather than happens at the font? The latter seems to actually take away from the desired effect.
Sincerely in Christ,
~Jason
Posted by Jason1646 on 03.12.04 at 9:04 am |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Well, it was a rhetorical flourish that wasn't intended to be taken exclusively. Certainly I believe that salvation goes beyond the font.
Posted by Tim on 03.12.04 at 11:12 am |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
I see, and upon a second reading I can see that better, since you also link salvation with the table and not just the font.
Thanks for the clarification.
Sincerely in Christ,
~Jason
Posted by Jason1646 on 03.12.04 at 11:27 am |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
True story:
Last year as part of preparation for a mission trip, the folks on our team were asked to prepare and present to each other a short testimony. I can't claim that mine was at al lelegant, but I talked mostly about my relationship with the church throughout my life. when I got done someone said "You used the word church too much, and I don't think you talked about the gospel." I wasn't exactly sure how to take this. When I think of what God has done in my life, I think of church. When I think about my participation in God's work, pitiful though my part is, I think of church.
This line of thought can really create some distance between us and our more evengelical friends. I still wish I could tell my story in a better way too.
Posted by Paul Baxter on 03.12.04 at 12:59 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
The issue is, "where is Christ"? Paul says that the Church is the fullness of Christ. (See my sermon on Eph 2.19-22.) Luther aptly spoke of "trysting places" in the Word and sacrament. I don't think you have anything to apologize for.
Posted by Tim on 03.12.04 at 1:05 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
I can apologize for being poor at rhetoric. If my speech bores and confuses people, it probably needs work. It would be great if I could tell my story in a way that interests people. Not interests them in me, but rather in Jesus and His people.
Posted by Paul Baxter on 03.12.04 at 4:22 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Posted by empire poker on 04.14.05 at 10:52 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Posted by ritalin on 04.19.05 at 6:04 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
STD
STD
Posted by std on 05.18.05 at 4:04 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
STD
STD
Posted by std on 05.18.05 at 4:05 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
STD
STD
Posted by std on 05.18.05 at 4:06 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
STD
STD
Posted by std on 05.18.05 at 4:06 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
STD
STD
Posted by std on 05.18.05 at 4:06 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
STD
STD
Posted by std on 05.18.05 at 4:07 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
STD
STD
Posted by std on 05.18.05 at 4:07 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
STD
STD
Posted by std on 05.18.05 at 4:08 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
STD
STD
Posted by std on 05.18.05 at 4:08 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
STD
STD
Posted by std on 05.18.05 at 4:09 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
STD
STD
Posted by std on 05.18.05 at 4:09 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
STD
STD
Posted by std on 05.18.05 at 4:09 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
You may find it interesting to visit the pages about win ...
Posted by party poker deposit bonus cod on 09.21.05 at 8:18 pm |
| ---------------------------------------------------------- |
Posted by bet on 09.24.05 at 1:58 am |
|